[2 Subjects] Addition of New Sandbox Maps & Lag/Latency Reduction for Sandbox

[CorrosiveSpiral]

Introduction

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Welcome to the discussion on the addition of new detailed maps and the reduction of lag within the Lenny Face Gaming Sandbox Server! First and foremost I would like to make one thing absolutely clear for everyone so as few inconsiderate-to-the-quality-of-the-server posts are made as possible. Discussion on the issues of lag regarding the maps in the first part of the thread should not started until people have at least thought about the ideas I present in the second part for some simple consideration. I would also like to point out that in no way I am a professional in the field optimization and ask that you not judge what I have to say too harshly. There will be two polls at the end that you can use to vote on the future of the sandbox server, so do think it over carefully. Oh and lastly I ask that you give an honest rating on what you think about this thread, I put a lot of effort into it and I don't want it to just be ignored, thanks!

New Maps Discussion

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First and foremost I will be explaining exactly why I think new maps should be added and why there is a general theme behind the maps that I will suggest, following the explanation. Now that we have that out of the way we can truly begin. So I am suggesting that we add these new maps for primarily 5 reasons:

1. With that addition of the new maps I am suggesting, and possibly more within the comments there would be far more variety and inspiration for builders and fighters alike, allowing for much more enjoyable gameplay!
   
2. With the maps that I will be suggesting personally, the idea behind them will be to provide a better looking, darker, and more diverse experience to the sandbox server than the usual, bland templates thrust upon us. I'm sure many of us have looked at a map and wished we could have an awesome server to go with it, which LFG provides of course.
   
3. As has been proven in the past, more complex maps will often work out rather well when it comes to latency and frame rate as long as there isn't a large amount of people in the server, which will of course segway into the second part of the thread later on!
   
4. As of late, or rather for quite a few years, the sandbox server has been a bit of a bland slog through all the monotonous, more-of-the-same maps that provide no unique environment or potential for roleplaying. While I understanding that a sandbox server is a not a roleplay server, I also understand that giving people so much freedom to express themselves in sandbox encourages roleplay greatly, which makes it an important part of the sandbox experience in the first place.
   
5. Simply put, my fifth reason is for artistic expression. While they are rare on Garry's Mod, there are those few of us who will genuinely try their best to build something beautiful, but in order to accomplish it we need more than a blank canvas. We aren't working with paint here after all, we're working with three dimensional objects with many different configurable properties and boundless freedom. It would do that particular type of a valuable person a great deed if we gave them more to work with. I for one am aspiring to be rather good at building in games and GMod is great for that if provided the right map.
   

I'd love to hear your comments on the reasons I've provided above as long as they're constructive and are at least vaguely aimed towards the improvement of the sandbox server! Now that I've provided you with my reasoning for wanting new maps to be added into the sandbox server I will give you many examples of maps I think would work well on the server!

(Right click and click, "View Image" to see photos if you're on PC)

• gm_Shambles: This maps is pretty simple and easy to understand to be honest. Most people already know this map as it is so popular but I'll still describe it. So essentially the map consists of an entire neighborhood of English architecture styled modern homes, 10 of which are open and can be built in. It has a decent sewer system with tunnels to access various areas of interest as well as a pretty large, blank part of the map with a nearby semi-farm to build things on. It also has just barely enough room to fly helicopters!
  

• GM_Marsh: GM_MARSH is probably the creepiest and most militaristic map of all of the maps here. It consists of, as the name entails, a marsh. The marsh has very thick fog and is filled with rusted and beat down structures. Such as an old fort, railroad, and much more. It would work pretty well for any sort of zombie business you want to get into!
  

• gm_fork_night: Now gm_fork_night is an awesome map on all accounts. Of course it is the same map as gm_fork but with a few added bonuses. It seems to be of a higher quality than the original map in itself and that would make it quite the decent sized map! Of all the maps I hope that this one is added the most! You can find more details on the workshop page, as is the same with all these maps. Oh, and it has enough room to fly helicopters and the slower planes, you'll probably run into a barrier after a bit with a jet though so be careful there. I know how people obsess over there WACs.
  

• rp_isolation: This map is pretty similar to gm_Shambles and gm_fork_night, however what separates it is it's very old, compact feel. It is also a very snowy map which will help to add a little variety to the choice of maps we have, and of course as I made sure it has enough blank building space to accommodate the more eh... creative type. (They're going to build dicks, we all know it)
  

• rp_betaworkshl2: 5 starts with 582 ratings on the workshop. Anything I say can't give this map enough praise so just check out the link. This is about the highest quality map on the list. Of course it's also the most massive but it could still work just fine.
  

• zs_castle_defense: A great map for two-sided wars using the party system. The map is simple yet detailed, being well optimized so that there is minimal lag. I mostly like this map simply because of what I imagine a war on it would be like. Also aquatic vehicles are viable here, so naturally flying yachts are going to be everywhere which is a double-edged blade to be honest.
  

So that concludes my list of all the maps that I believe deserve to be added to the sandbox server. Now to get some solid feedback on what others might think about it I will place a poll down for people to vote on! Before we get to that however we will need to touch on lag reduction, which will be done in the very obvious second part right below this text, right now, as soon as you stop reading this text. Shiba-dooba-dipa-loop, okay you're allowed to stop reading this now.

Lag Reduction Discussion

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Now I'm going to be honest here when I said I was going to be doing a second part of this thread I though I would be going deep into detail about it but I really only have two points to make here. The first one is that the amount of lag that is caused is partially due to the complexity of the map, which influenced the choices of the maps I listed greatly when I was going through them, still keeping quality in mind. The second part is the players in general! Whenever there is typically over 20 players in the sandbox server at any given time some very stupid things start to take place. Like for instance people breaking the rules or throwing around rag dolls,as well as all other sorts of the things that absolutely ruin the frame rate and latency! So I have proposed a second poll to combat the issue of having too many players, and while I know it won't stop people from breaking the rules or doing stupid things, the reduction of the player limit will allow for a smoother experience. Controversial but ultimately needed if we want to be using actually good maps. I apologize if this second part doesn't exactly live up to the quality of the first part but I really didn't know as much as I needed to do that sort of thing. I would however greatly appreciate the advice of any readers here educated enough in the matter. However do keep in mind that your comments should be mainly directed towards experienced L.F.G. staff first, I can wait.

Conclusion

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That concludes the two topics I felt were important enough to discuss! I know it's an awful lot to think about but it's necessary for the improvement of the sandbox server. I fully expect plenty of criticism from the comments whenever this thread goes up and I simply ask you to think about what would make the game more fun, rather than more of the same! Thank you for reading through all the way through my thread, I really appreciate it!

[Demonik1]

A lot of the slots for sandbox are reserved for admins which is why it is so high, i do like all the maps though they look dank

[Zellogi]

The only map I like out of these is Shambles, the rest are too big in file size or too dark, or aren't even a sandbox map to begin with. Any map that doesn't have gm_ before it isn't really a sandbox map and wasn't intended for a sandbox server. You have two rp_ maps which is for DarkRP and even a zs_ map which is for Zombie Survival. If those were to be added, they wouldn't ever be seen in the mapvote since it runs on gm_ maps unless Saint specifically adds them to the mapvote.

As for the server capacity, that's not the problem. The server gets pretty populated at times so reducing it would actually do more harm than good. I've seen the server actually reach max capacity before, so why would we reduce the slots?

[CorrosiveSpiral]

The only map I like out of these is Shambles, the rest are too big in file size or too dark, or aren't even a sandbox map to begin with. Any map that doesn't have gm_ before it isn't really a sandbox map and wasn't intended for a sandbox server. You have two rp_ maps which is for DarkRP and even a zs_ map which is for Zombie Survival. If those were to be added, they wouldn't ever be seen in the mapvote since it runs on gm_ maps unless Saint specifically adds them to the mapvote.

As for the server capacity, that's not the problem. The server gets pretty populated at times so reducing it would actually do more harm than good. I've seen the server actually reach max capacity before, so why would we reduce the slots?

You bring up a lot of fair points which I appreciate it but of course I'm going to defend my standing here as strongly as I can. First and foremost I can't see the issue in file size as practically nobody has issues with such a thing on a pretty standard desktop setup or even slightly lower that that. Additionally we're talking about a whole server handling such a thing so it absolutely won't be an issue (Because of course file size does not dictate the methods used to create the map, which are more responsible for the lag.). I respect your right to have an opinion but I will state that in my opinion some dark maps would simply do more good than harm, adding variety and a different style of gameplay than the typical, "I can see everything everywhere out in the open so nothing surprises me." which just doesn't sound very fun after a while when it comes to PVP. As for building I can understand the concern, which is why the light tool comes in awfully handy when you're doing that as well as the !build command.

Your final point is completely valid and I find myself having a hard time arguing against it so I suppose I should make this very clear. I provided multiple options on the final poll so that people would have some comfort in making their decision, as such a decision is a sacrifice of course. My intent behind speaking of reducing the max player limit was to improve the speed of the server overall at the sacrifice of how many people can be in it. Trust me if people were to crack down more on the clearly underage, toxic,  and/or excessively AFK players there would still be space. That and of course like Demonik1 said there is reserved slots for admins to join in, which is why I specified players and did not include the amount of admins as well, as I had no clue of the amount and future amount.

Well there you go, I did what I could to convince you and yeah good choice on Shambles, it is the most useful one out of the bunch for the server's current system. The rest have varying degrees of extra complexity for the sake of quality as I said.

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Oh dear, I've just realized people can pick quite and odd combination of choices on the first poll. Oh well it should still be relatively reliable despite that as long as people don't screw with it too much.

[UHC]

+ vouch on the sandbox maps. I like the different atmospheres, mostly the night ones.

However for rp_isolation: (based on the screenshots) seems to have many tight or cramped areas, though there are a few open places.

For rp_betaworks, the desert aesthetic is nice but it looks like its mostly outside, and for some people who haven't figured out that building in open areas is a thing... they probably wont like it. The base itself is cool but it just spells out a battle of who connects first and takes it over the fastest. I'm sure not everyone will try that but newer players will definitely go for it.

For zs_castle_defense: the screenshots show only 2 castles which doesn't do well for base battling. Unlike gm_warmap which has 6 bases, and a large open area, this looks like only 2 castles and loads of water. So its either water, castle or air. In warmap, its large base, hill bases, ground attacks, sniping, plenty of air space, and can use tanks well. With that being said, the inside of the castle is great and looks awesome, if there was more castles or more land it might work out better.

[DarudeDankstorm]

Before we add all of this, can we got a day to just test out some maps to see if they're actually good? And I don't mean  Saint testing them alone, we just all hop on and go through the rotation. Neutral until I play the maps. May download them when I get home.

[CorrosiveSpiral]

Before we add all of this, can we got a day to just test out some maps to see if they're actually good? And I don't mean  Saint testing them alone, we just all hop on and go through the rotation. Neutral until I play the maps. May download them when I get home.

Yeah probably, we shouldn't hop into this blindly and to be honest I haven't been on all of these maps. Of course I have high hopes for them though since they are of such a high quality. It's up to SaintLuther on what we want to do but people clearly want more maps more than anything!

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+ vouch on the sandbox maps. I like the different atmospheres, mostly the night ones.

However for rp_isolation: (based on the screenshots) seems to have many tight or cramped areas, though there are a few open places.

For rp_betaworks, the desert aesthetic is nice but it looks like its mostly outside, and for some people who haven't figured out that building in open areas is a thing... they probably wont like it. The base itself is cool but it just spells out a battle of who connects first and takes it over the fastest. I'm sure not everyone will try that but newer players will definitely go for it.

For zs_castle_defense: the screenshots show only 2 castles which doesn't do well for base battling. Unlike gm_warmap which has 6 bases, and a large open area, this looks like only 2 castles and loads of water. So its either water, castle or air. In warmap, its large base, hill bases, ground attacks, sniping, plenty of air space, and can use tanks well. With that being said, the inside of the castle is great and looks awesome, if there was more castles or more land it might work out better.

Thanks for vouching for it, don't forget to vote in the polls.

Since that business is out of the way I've looked through rp_isolation's pictures and it seems there are at least a few medium-sized areas for sniping which seems to be the main concern. You could set up a blockade (without prop blocking) and just snipe down the road on one of the pictures.

For rp_betaworks yes there is one main, big base but the map is massive, containing many different buildings which can be used as well. Which includes one rather run-down looking building in one of the pictures that looks absolutely gorgeous!

For zs_castle_defense you are completely correct, yeah there is probably better maps for that sort of thing than that. I just needed to fill that spot with something of relatively high quality!

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Don't forget to rate this thread, I put a lot of effort into it and I need people to notice it!

[Zellogi]

When I say file size, I don't mean it'll be laggy. Only stupid people think that. I mean if the map ever wins, a 150mb download for a map alone seems a little high. Not everyone has top speed internet which is why we don't have more add-ons despite the amount of suggestions that come in.

Also, contrary to what people might think, sandbox isn't just a PvP server. We already have people deploying cheap battle tactics for easy kills on a map with full visibility, robbing them of vision just gives them another reason to never vote that map. Why do you think gm_mines is never played? And yeah, we have the light tool, but having too many lights causes frame drops for lower end PC's so we're back to lag/fps issues.

The only way I would ever agree to lowering the player slots is if Sandbox was divided into two servers: one for building only, one for PvP only.

[CorrosiveSpiral]

When I say file size, I don't mean it'll be laggy. Only stupid people think that. I mean if the map ever wins, a 150mb download for a map alone seems a little high. Not everyone has top speed internet which is why we don't have more add-ons despite the amount of suggestions that come in.

Also, contrary to what people might think, sandbox isn't just a PvP server. We already have people deploying cheap battle tactics for easy kills on a map with full visibility, robbing them of vision just gives them another reason to never vote that map. Why do you think gm_mines is never played? And yeah, we have the light tool, but having too many lights causes frame drops for lower end PC's so we're back to lag/fps issues.

The only way I would ever agree to lowering the player slots is if Sandbox was divided into two servers: one for building only, one for PvP only.

Thanks for the comment, but it really wasn't constructive at all. :/

[DarudeDankstorm]

Thanks for the comment, but it really wasn't constructive at all. :/

How is it not contructive? Zel's giving valid arguments towards why he thinks some aspects of it are a bad idea, and explaining why. He made a lot of good points, and to say that it isn't constructive is pretty retarded.